We should FEAR GOD, yes? This is our proper posture before the Divine! One of abject FEAR and TREMBLING. Yes? For we are all sinners, unworthy of anything but condemnation — were it not for the mercy of the Lord. So, fear God…
Yes?
Ummmm…
As you will recall, when last we met we were discussing in this class a contribution made by Nin, republished below…

If we could reach heaven based upon what we do here on earth in this life. then Jesus was a huge fool for going to the cross because he thought that his death was to redeem our sinful nature.

In response to this comment, I asked a series of questions…
What sinful nature, Nin? What sinful nature does a 6-year-old have? Or, for that matter, even a 99-year-old? Gosh, my grandma was the nicest person you’d ever want to meet. What sinful nature are we talking about? And please don’t fall back on that old saw, “Everyone has committed sin. No one can claim perfection in the eyes of the Lord…”
Who was it that said that “perfection” (whatever that is) is required by the Lord? Are you seriously saying that unless a person behaves perfectly (by some measure to which we are not even privvy) in every single solitary second of their life, that they are subject to judgment, condemnation, and everlasting suffering in the scorching fires of hell — unless they are “saved” by their belief in Jesus? Is this the theology the world is asked (or should I say, “required”) to accept? Is this the God that the world is invited to believe in? A God who would judge, condemn, and punish a little old lady who dies at 99 after a lifetime of goodness and kindness and gentleness, who just happened to be Jewish?
Let me put this to you simply…W H Y W O U L D G O D N E E D T O A C T L I K E T H I S?
Class?
(Are there any Christians in this class? Kristine? Anybody…?)
To this, class member Stephen wrote…

A lot of people are locked into Heaven and Hell.
So remember to show a bit of patience.
Love is more powerful that criticism.

I agree with you, Stephen. We all benefit when we all show patience with each other. Let us not confuse patience, however, with a failure to ask questions. It is not criticism which continues any good discussion, but merely an intellectual and spiritual desire to know more and more and more….
….so, let this discussion continue — and not be misconstrued as criticism.
Then Bry wrote…

I have found in my experience, many many people don’t ask why. I was one of those people for a long time. Until I did. Then for a while it was very troubling. For instance, my big “why”, was if God knows everything ahead of time, and He knows who would accept His son and who wouldn’t ahead of time, then why create the non believer in the first place, just to send that person to hell later. Made absolutely no sense to me whatever. Especially if God is love. A relative of mine would tell me God is also a just God. Didn’t really explain the whole “I know you aren’t going to accept Jesus as your savior, but I’ll go ahead and let you be born so I can send you to hell later” issue I had. So I investigated, eventually found your CwG books, and fell head over heels in love with God. The sky parted, I saw the light, etc. etc.

I am so glad, Bry, that you feel the CwG books brought you benefit. And I do understand the difficulty you have had in embracing an arbitrary and capricious God. Bry, I was particularly struck by this observation from you regarding the view of some Fundamentalist Christians…

Why is the bible the only word of God in their view? Because they were taught that it is. They have faith in the bible, and no questions.

I think that the day we stop asking questions is the day that we become dangerous.
I loved this contribution, from a person who speaks of an encounter with Jesus, who did not sign a name…

…one night in bed, I just called out to him, and basically apologized for being a butt head, and I felt Jesus there with me. He was laughing. Not at me. But just pure joyful, loving laughter. It was kinda like we were in on some great joke. It was one of the greatest experiences of my life.

I have no question and do doubt that God will come to you in whatever form you imagine God to take, whenever and wherever you call out to God. Yes, Jesus will come to you if you call out to him. There is no question in my mind about that. None. In this sense, Jesus saves. In truth and in light, Jesus saves.
…as does every Individuation of the Divine, when that soul renders itself available to any other soul in the Universe for the purpose of demonstrating and remembering Divinity Itself, in any and every moment…
I have seldom heard more wisdom from a minister, however, than I found in this contribution from Rev. Glen…

Neale… I am an ordained minister and, I confess, a believing Christian (by choice) who does not buy into the idea of “salvation” and “judgement” as they have been traditionally espoused by the institutional church. It seems you are wanting to explore the concept of “original sin,” which “the Church” has taught as gospel for many generations. The basic concept goes like this: God originally created humanity in a pure, sinless state; however, because “Adam” and “Eve” disobeyed God and ate the big juicy apple, humanity was then forever cursed with the blemish of their naughtiness and infected with their “sin,” thus creating the “need” for humanity to “get clean” and “get right” with God. It’s classic traditional Christianity 101. We’re taught that we are BAD boys and girls who have made Big Daddy angry, and we must now “make it right” with him – or else. Enter Jesus. The rest, as they say, is history.
Here’s my take on it: The concept of original sin actually started with the apostle Paul, whose theology has shaped the entire history of the Church’s belief system, and then was driven home by a guy named Augustine who had his own issues with God and himself. Leaders of the institutional church quickly figured out just how powerful this message could be in manipulating the masses to become spiritually and emotionally dependent on the authority of the Church. Think about it: what better way to create allegiance and dependance than to perpetuate a message of fear! This belief-system (Jesus or else!) is neatly packaged in a powerful message of fear (of eternal damnation)which attempts to coerce people to believe that they are in need of “someone” to “save” them! Essentially, it is no different than the “politics of fear” that we have seen our president and the Republican party use over the past 8 years to try to manipulate the public to believe that only “THEY” will protect us from the BAD people – the enemy! These manipulative psychological maneuvers play to our earliest childhood instincts of vulnerability and fear which, they hope, will cause us to go in search of a hero who will “save” us from what we fear most. In the case of classic Christianity 101, Jesus is the hero, and the Church happens to be his agent – the one who controls access to the hero. Ironically, it’s all really more about power, control and authority than it is discovering our true spiritual selves and the unconditional love of God.
Oh well. There’s lots more I could say, but my fingers are getting tired. Hope this tickles your feet. Glen S, OH

What a remarkable insight. What a clear description, from a “man of the cloth,” of how so many people have gotten where they are today…
New class member Eric had this to say…

I came today to this site and thought that an interesting conversation was going on. I’m a Christian and would like to give my point of view regarding Jesus and salvation. I believe that the reason Jesus died on the cross was because he loved us. Love God! Love people! God cares for us. Without love we wouldn’t be here. We would not be even having these kind of conversations. Maybe the depth of love is shown in unconditional love….loving someone no matter what.

Thank you, Eric, for your contribution. Eric, might you be willing to answer the questions that I have asked at the top of this column? Jesus died on the cross because he loved us, you say. Fair enough, and okay. But why, Eric, was his death necessary in the first place? What was he saving us from? And why was our being “saved” even necessary? Those are the questions, Eric. Any thoughts on this?
AM….thank you for quoting so extensively from Tomorrow’s God. I thought the excerpts were right on point. And Victor, thank you for the long list of military interventions by a “One Nation, Under God…” A fascinating point…
I’m going to end today with my own reflection of this comment from Chief…

The thing you miss the mark on, Victor, is the fear of the Lord. There is a reason when a divine messenger appeared to men and women on earth that they had to constantly say “Fear Not!” That is because we are troubled and afraid (or SHOULD BE, anyway!) when in the presence of the divine. The awesome spectacle of one who is holy and majestic should cause our knees to tremble and our voice to quiver.

Oh, my gosh….WHY, Chief….WHY????? Why should being in the presence of the Most Beloved cause our kneews to tremble and our voice to quiver in FEAR???? Why would being in the presence of God not cause our hearts to MELT??? And our FEARS to DISSOLVE in the Precious Presence of Love?
What do we GET out of believing in a GOD who must be FEARED in order to be embraced at all? Would you want a spouse you had to fear? Would you want a mother or father you had to fear? No. NO!!! We want LOVE to flow when we are in the presence of the Divine, not FEAR.
OHmygosh…how did it come to this? HOW?
More tomorrow.
Gosh…