Here’s the latest from the crossroads of faith, media & culture: 09/09/24

Don Lemon speaks his mind. The former CNN host gained fame covering and opining on such nationally traumatizing events as the Sandy Hook Elementary School massacre in 2012, the police killing of George Floyd in 2020, the unrest that followed and the election-related riot of January 6th, 2021. His book on race, This is the Fire, became a #1 New York Times bestseller. Since his contentious departure departure from CNN last year, he has gone on to tangle with Elon Musk and launch his own podcast aptly called The Don Lemon Show.

In Part One of our conversation about his new book, I Once Was Lost: My Search for God in America, he contemplates his “complicated relationship” with God and the flag and offers a high-tech solution for resolving the issue of reparations.

JWK: So, what drew you to write I Once Was Lost?

Don Lemon: I’ve been thinking over the last couple of years after I wrote the other book,This is the Fire, about what I was going to do next because I had been sort of concerned how people were using religion around politics and social issues. I wasn’t sure how I wanted to address that. I started addressing it a little bit on the air. Then I started to write the book. I reached out to the publishers and decided maybe I would take a stab at it. So, I started writing the book and the idea sort of started coming about. Then I left CNN. I said I was gonna take the summer off and really delve into it. That’s when the book really came together.

The book is about how my faith in God and my love for this country really shaped my life and how it really empowered me to overcome Evangelical teachings that really sought to marginalize me. In my work on cable news – and on CNN – I realized the power that Evangelicals had over society and over politics. As a voting bloc, Evangelicals have real power. The only way we can defeat them and combat some of their toxic teachings is through love – love of the country, love for each other and love for ourselves. I wanted to sort of get into how in pushing for theocracy Evangelicals are not just leading us away from democracy. They’re pushing us away from Jesus as well.

JWK: Did you grow up in an Evangelical church?

DL: I did not. I grew up in a Missionary Baptist church.

JWK: How would you say that experience is different than the Evangelical experience?

DL: Listen, I mean it was somewhat similar. We just did not push our agenda on a national political level. I remember I was coming of age around the same time the whole Evangelical and religious right started making their way into politics. That was around 1980. Remember the Moral Majority? And Bob Jones University was trying to ban interracial dating at the school…and I believed it. I fell for it a little bit because I thought that who I was and what I was doing was an abomination – that as a gay person what I was doing was going against God.

JWK: Did they teach that in your church, as well?

DL: Oh, yeah. Of course. Then I also thought, when they were trying to outlaw or ban interracial dating, you know, I’ve dated interracially – so I was like “Wow! What am I doing?! I’m really bad!”

JWK: The first chapter of your book is titled Oh, Lord, Please Don’t Let Me Be Misunderstood. How would you say you’ve been misunderstood over the years?

DL: Oh, my gosh! I’ve been misunderstood a lot. I think that people allow their opponents, enemies and competitors to define them. That happens a lot in media. I think in many ways the Fox Newses of the world, the New York Post and the conservative media, have created a narrative about me and who I am that’s not necessarily true. I even think that the former president has done that as well – by saying that I’m a liberal and I’m this and I’m that. I’m really not. I’m not a Democrat, nor am I a Republican. I have some liberal leanings and I have some conservative leanings. In many ways my detractors have tried to define me in the media. Because I’ve worked for a big organization where contractually I could not defend myself on my own, a lot of that stuff stood and people believed it.

JWK: What are some of the conservative leanings you have that people might not that people might not associate with you?

DL: Well, it depends on what it is. It’s weird because socially I think I’m a bit conservative. I see things that are in the media that are sort of things that I don’t necessarily agree with but I don’t condemn people for them. I may not want to dress up an go out as a woman. I mean Halloween is one thing, right? Where you do costumes – but I don’t condemn people who do that because even if I don’t agree with it myself – and my sort of religious values or whatever – our Constitution says that we have a right to freedom of expression in this country. So, if I am going to believe in the Constitution then I have to believe that other people have to the freedom to be able to express themselves the way they want (whether) I agree with them religiously or not. Those are two separate things.

JWK: Of course, a lot of people feel misunderstood. We also need to understand the other side as well, right? It’s not just a matter of us being misunderstood – but to understand the other side as well.

DL: It depends on what the other side is.

JWK: You write in Chapter One of your book “As a gay man, I have a complicated relationship with the Bible.” Can you elaborate on that a little bit?

DL: I think people use the Bible and Scriptures in ways that they want to. I think that they manipulate Scripture in order to fit it into their own idea of what they want to believe for their own power and their own edification. People have done it for centuries. They did it with women, they did it black people – to keep women subjugated and to keep people enslaved. They do it with gay people to discriminate against gay people. They use the same Scriptures. It all depends on interpretation. I think they look at the Bible as if it’s some sort of factual book when it is really a library of fables, parables and lessons on how to treat people. People don’t understand that – or at least they pretend not to understand it and they use it as some sort of a rule book in order to be able to control people.

JWK: You also write that “As a Black man I have a complicated relationship with the flag.” Can you elaborate on that?

DL: Yeah, because of what the flag represents. Where it represents freedom, independence and opportunity for some people, it has not always represented that for me. It still does not – especially when people use it the the way they use it. For example – just one example of many – Colin Kaepernick who tried to bring light, insight and awareness to the subject of police brutality and police corruption by doing it in a way that was respectful – by asking a member of the military what was the best way to do that – and then he lost his job, he lost his career and he was ostracized. Whether we want to believe it or not, this country was built on slavery and discrimination. I’m part of that legacy of a people who built this country and have not always had the same rights as, you know, some.

JWK: I wrote for Beliefnet that I did not understand the Kaepernick controversy because I did think he was expressing himself in a respectful way. On the other hand though, Tim Tebow took a knee and he got criticism from the other side.

DL: Tim Tebow did not lose his job on a football team. He’s still working as a commentator. He still has a viable career. Our Constitution allows you to criticize. I’m not saying that Colin Kaepernick should not be criticized. We all can be – but he was not ostracized and banned from the NFL. Tim Tebow is still loved – and loved by many (including) the people who run the NFL organizations and corporations. He still has sponsorships, jobs and a viable income. Colin Kaepernick had to fight for that and is demonized.

JWK: He did get a Netflix deal.

DL: Yeah, but I mean come on. You can’t compare Colin Kaepernick to Tim Tebow.

JWK: Turning to slavery, certainly there’s a lot of blame to go around regarding American history – but slavery wasn’t just an American phenomenon. Sometimes people on the conservative side feel like when slavery is discussed it’s presented like it was invented here and only existed here.

DL: Well, American slavery was invented here.

JWK: But slavery existed before America existed.

DL: Yeah, but what does that have to do with America?

JWK: When you talk about slavery maybe a little perspective is in order.

DL: Let me stop you there. I think that’s just an excuse because there are a lot of things that existed. I mean look at what happens now to women who are in foreign countries. That doesn’t mean that we have to treat our women that same way.

JWK: I think you’re totally right that we should confront our own country’s role in slavery but some people feel like, when you don’t talk about it occurring anywhere else, it slants things a bit.

DL: Well, I think it’s important to know history. That’s why I think it’s important not to ban books and that’s why I think it’s important to teach children about slavery so that they’ll know the history of it. If in that teaching of American history you teach people about enslaving African Americans then obviously one should teach about history that is beyond America – which we do teach about. Those things are all taught about slavery – Romans and all of that. I learned that in my history books. I didn’t learn that much about American slavery – at least not the real part of it. Well, I did because I went to a black Catholic school.

JWK: I went to Catholic school too – and we learned a lot about slavery. It wasn’t a hidden subject, not in my school anyway.

DL: I’m sure they didn’t teach you everything. Many people are still finding out about slavery and about Jim Crow. There are people now who are just finding out about what happened to Black Wall Street. There were other massacres around the country after Reconstruction that people did not learn about. Yeah, I agree with you, we should learn about all of it – but I think African Americans have a unique history in this country that should not be downplayed and should be actually taught and elevated because it is part of American history. It’s probably the biggest part of American history – the people who built this country for free and were not able to reap the benefits and the rewards and, especially, not the generational wealth that so many people have the luxury of relying upon and which gives them a whole lot of ease in this society that the people who built this country actually don’t have.

JWK: Yes, all of that it is true – but there has been an enormous amount of progress and sacrifices made on both sides to garner that progress. I believe America is the only majority white country that has ever elected a black president. So, progress has been made.

DL: No, there hasn’t been sacrifices on both sides. Sacrifices for what? What are the sacrifices for white people?

JWK: You don’t think the Union soldiers made sacrifices – as well as white civil rights activists who were murdered?

DL: They did not make sacrifices. What were the sacrifices? That they would have to share their presence with black people? That’s not a sacrifice. That’s a human right.

JWK: I’m talking about the people who laid down their lives. I’m not comparing it to what black people as a whole went through but there were significant sacrifices made.

DL: I don’t know if there were sacrifices. If you were doing your duty as an American to fight for all people then, yeah, if you want to call it that – but it wasn’t a special sacrifice for black people. It was a sacrifice to keep the Union together. I think everyone who goes into the military makes that commitment. I think a better sacrifice would be reparations.

JWK: You believe in reparations?

DL: Absolutely.

JWK: What would reparations look like?

DL: I write about it in the book. Did you read it?

JWK: I read part of the book. I didn’t have time to read it all.

DL: You can read about it in the book but what I write about is how we have all this intelligence now, especially Artificial Intelligence. We have evidence of what people and who benefited from slavery, racism and Jim Crow and who and what people actually were victims of it. There’s a enough evidence if you look at Henry Louis Gates and other who have studied it. All you have to do is now put Artificial Intelligence on top of that. That will figure it out for everybody and it should be solved.

JWK: So Artificial Intelligence should be put in charge of reparations?

DL: Not be put in charge – but it can actually help.

JWK: So, what would that look like? What would be the appropriate reparations?

DL: That’s what AI can help figure out. I’m not a computer. That’s what AI could figure out.

JWK: It’s hard for me – with my mere human mind – to even put a price what would be appropriate. Do you think we might be better off going forward and building on the progress that has been made?

DL: Yeah – with reparations, absolutely. The best way to move forward is by figuring out how to give restitution and reparations for those who have suffered under a history of slavery and depression. Other countries have figured it out.

JWK: Has anybody done reparations? Has it been done somewhere?

DL: Sure.

JWK: Okay, then educate me. What country has had reparations?

DL: Germans have done it for Jews. There have been reparations for Jewish people.

JWK: Right, but that was going back one generation. To go back hundreds of years that have included mixed marriages and, of course, not every black person was actually a slave. Some black people were free. So, how do you figure all this out?

DL: That’s what I said. Artificial Intelligence can help you figure it out. That’s what computers can do. We’re on a computer now. We didn’t even fathom maybe fifty years ago that we would all be walking around with computers and televisions in our hands. Artificial Intelligence can figure that out and calculate every single person who has ever lived in America, their relationships, their ethnicity, what companies have reaped what benefits, how many millions, billions or trillions of dollars have been added to the economy on the backs of slaves, people of color or African Americans. It can figure that out. It’s not that hard.

JWK: Well, you say we need Artificial Intelligence to do it – so it is pretty hard. Moving on, do you feel this country has made any progress over the years?

DL: Of course, it’s made progress over the years. Yes, absolutely. It’s undeniable that the country has made progress but I don’t think that we can actually move forward in an honest way if we don’t look back and figure out those things. We have to be really candid and honest about where we’ve come from and where we’re going. We’ve done a huge disservice in this country to many people – but especially people of color. Black people have a unique relationship with the history of this country. We have a unique relationship with slavery – more so than any other country in this world. Until we figure that out in a humane and honest way, then I don’t think that we’ll ever get at least close to solving the issues that we might have with racism – because then no one is being honest. Everyone just keeps making an excuse and then time just keeps going by. I just think that we need to be honest about it.

Note: In Part Two of our conversation, we discuss 2024 election issues, including the renewed debate over abortion.

John W. Kennedy is a writer, producer and media development consultant specializing in television and movie projects that uphold positive timeless values, including trust in God.