Here’s the latest from the crossroads of faith, media & culture: 05/03/24

Thinking outside the box. In Part 1 of my conversation with prolific TV show creator Dave Noll (Chopped, America’s Says, among others), the author of The Visionary in Charge: 7 Simple Rules…Because Just One Extraordinary Idea Can Change Your Life shared his learned wisdom on seeing creative ideas transformed into reality – but reality is more than a program genre. It’s also life and he says the principles that work in creating successful television can be put to work in other areas of life too.

We pick up our discussion talking about newest project, The Flip Side, a game show hosted by Jaleel White (Family Matters) set to air this fall on Game Show Network and CBS stations across the country.

JWK: So, people have to guess how a college student would answer a question as opposed to a college professor. Is that the idea?

DN: Exactly. So, you might say “We asked college professors what’s the worst thing about students?” and then we ask the students “What’s the worst thing about professors.” That’s the heart of the show. So, you’re trying to predict what they said.

JWK: It’s a great idea. Was it an easy sell?

DN: Nothing’s easy! (laughs) We pitched that to John Budkins at CBS. I give him credit. He got it right away. It took a long time. We’d been talking about it for a long time. We did the pilot last year and we turned it in. To John’s credit – and CBS’ credit – they were very, very happy with it right away. We waited and waited and then they picked it up…It’s a difficult time for TV in general but the great thing is there are so many great game shows in syndication now. Obviously, Wheel of Fortune, Jeopardy! and Family Feud – but then there’s also 25 Words or Less, Pictionary and (others). So, to enter that world of syndication and then to be back on Game Show Network with a brand-new show, we are so happy! We did 80 episodes of Winsanity for Game Show Network and 540 episodes of America Says. So, we’re hoping that The Flip Side is the one that crosses 1000 episodes.

JWK: You’ve talked about identifying the idea that will rise to the top. How do you do that? How do you know you have an idea that will rise to the top – or do you know?

DN: It’s interesting. (My business partner) Cleve (Keller) and I create shows constantly. We are almost day-to-day texting each other, calling each other, getting on Zoom, writing things back and forth, writing decks, just constantly creating ideas. Really it’s just we have been doing it for such a long time now that we kind of know what we love, what we want to watch and then what we think is sellable. We’re about to go out with two or three ideas. This is after months and months of creating. There’s a new game show that we’re gonna go out with, there’s a new doc series format that we’re gonna go out with and a new cooking competition. These are all just ideas that we love, that we want to see and that we think are very sellable. They have unique hooks that we think the networks will love and always, always – this is from (Barry) Diller – they’re shows that we believe could go to 1000 episodes or more. That’s what we’re looking for. Obviously, it’s so hard. Nothing anymore goes to a 1000 episodes. We know if you shoot for 1000 then maybe, like with America Says, you settle for 540 – and that’s great! We’re really happy about 540.

JWK: And you say you’re hoping to bring America Says back.

DN: Yeah. We have a couple of different ways. We very much want to bring that back.

JWK: How important is it to be passionate about a project as opposed to, you know, “We’ve done the research and, by the numbers, this should sell.” ?

DN: That’s really what Carnie Wilson (in Part 1 of this interview) was saying. Carnie was basically saying “Dave, I’ve been in business with you. You bring these shows to life because you love them so much.” It’s true. The shows that we’re going out with (now), I can see them fully. Cleve can see them. We know the color of the set. We know everything – the type of host we want, the feeling the viewer has when they watch the show, what the viewer will be saying to the people who sit next to them. When we envisioned Chopped we knew in a perfect world you would sit next to whoever – your wife, your boyfriend, your kids – and you’d say “Ooh! I really want that person to win!” or “I think this person’s gonna be chopped next.” We knew kind of what they would say if the show worked. One of the things that we look for is how will people talk to the TV? So, it’s all about that level of passion. TV is so hard. It’s so hard to get any show on the air. You have to be 100% passionate about every show because there are so many walls that are gonna be put up. So, you need enough passion to crash through, go around, go over or dig under every one of those walls that gets put up.

JWK: I guess that’s true about finding success at a lot of things – not just television.

DN: Because of the book, I’ve done a lot more speaking engagements. They’re not just TV speaking engagements. They’re for real estate agents, gym owners or financial planners. What I have more and more found is that that level of passion is valuable no matter what you do. The kind of silly – but also crazy smart – ways that Cleve and I have kind of been able to turn rejection into (something) that doesn’t even exist really. Now when people reject our shows, we just consider it a step forward.

We were talking about this at the start, we know that we need 30 pitches no matter what. No matter what the show is, no matter how good the pitch is, you need 30 pitches to get to at least one deal. You need least four deals to get a show on the air. You need at least eight shows to get to hit. So, every one of those rejections along the way is literally just a step forward.

JWK: So, that’s how you deal with rejection – viewing it as a step forward.

DN: It is. One rule in the book is “There is no fear and there is no failure.” I have three kids, three daughters. As kids you’re taught that an F is terrible, right? Failing is bad…You’re trying to hide it from your parents – but really in the business world you kind of have to destroy that thinking. You need to make mistakes to learn. You need to get rejection. Brandon Tartikoff, the guy who ran NBC in the eighties…would say no matter the show is – even if it’s Friends – you need to pitch it 30 times. It’s not about rejection. You need those 29 rejections in order to get to the buyer who is the perfect buyer on the perfect day.

JWK: Brandon Tartikoff once said something like that the person he respects most in history is the person who first drank milk from a cow because he was taking a big risk that paid off.

DN: That’s brilliant!

JWK: I’ll tell you a personal story. The reason I know that is because I once wrote a TV pilot loosely based on my experiences as the editor of my college newspaper. It was called The Paper Boys. I sent a proposal for the show via snail mail and I attached a straw to it and wrote “I hope you’ll look at this as your way of drinking milk from a cow.” So, he actually had an executive get back to me and they agreed to read script.

DN: Wow. That’s brilliant.

JWK: They actually liked it. They didn’t buy it but they said they liked it…So, Brandon Tartikoff was nice to me.

DN: I never met him but his book is unbelievable. It’s a great book. Anyone who wants to work who wants to work in TV should read it.

JWK: Speaking of the old days, how has new media changed things? How do you take into account the rise of streaming, podcasting and what have you?

DN: When we started – Cleve and I – it was kind of like when reality was exploding. Survivor, Who Wants to Be a Millionaire and then Big Brother, shows like that were just kind of taking off. I remember people used to say “This will never last. Game shows will never last. Reality shows will never last. Survivor will never last.” Everyone has always been kind of, I’d say, sort of doomy and gloomy. Cleve, the reason I love her and the reason we’ve been working together now for a very long time, is because she and I just have this blue sky vision of TV shows. We see the bright side of all of it. Buyers come and go. I always say there are 40 buyers at any time and there always have been. Some of them are gone now – and then there are new ones but, other than that, nothing has really changed. At the end of day, people love game shows. They love competition, just as they love sports. Football is a lot bigger now than it used to be. Basketball’s bigger. Maybe baseball’s a little smaller but people love sports. You know, NASCAR now is a bigger thing. I think game shows, competition shows, unscripted TV in general is the same thing. People are always gonna love it. There’s always a new hit and you don’t see it coming.

When The Masked Singer was announced Cleve and I had seen the overseas version. Everyone in TV just made fun of it all – like “It’ll never never be a hit.” Cleve called me and said “I think it’s gonna be huge” because it looks and feels like American Idol, right? Even the set, even the colors, the audience, the songs, the host, the judges – the way the judges talk – everything is so comfortable and yet it’s not The Voice, Idol or even America’s Got Talent. It’s not a kid singing. It’s a celebrity in a crazy colorful insane mind-blowing costume. That’s really the only difference. Everything else about the show is the same.

JWK: So, it’s like your one click away idea – the same but different.

DN: Yeah. So, Cleve said “I really thing it’s going to be a smash.” She was totally right. Netflix now is a buyer – and Apple and Peacock and Max – but, at the end of the day, we’re just selling great ideas. People look for things that are a little different. That’s what we do.

JWK: Is it a little harder with the audience spread out so much over so many different platforms?

DN: I guess maybe it’s harder to catch people’s attention but, as I say, it’s always been hard to catch people’s attention. There are always so many people that want to create a big smash hit TV show whether you’re pitching…Survivor and you’re Mark Burnett or whether you’re pitching Jeopardy! and you’re Merv Griffin. There are so many people out there always who want to create the next big giant hit TV show. So, even though the audience is spread out when you’re pitching a show where you’re trying to get the biggest possible audience…it’s always been hard. It’s always been basically as hard as winning an Olympic gold medal. So, you just go out every day and you try to pitch the best show you possibly can.

JWK: And Cleve is your collaborator.

DN: Yes.

JWK: How important is it to have a good creative partner?

DN: For my personality, I never would have lasted anywhere near this long without her. She is very, very unique in that her mind is absolutely shocking. People will give us assignments. They’ll say “Hey, we want a cooking competition but we want to focus on women 18 to 35” or “We want a show that’s a combination of music and cooking” or whatever they say. If somebody gives us that assignment on a Thursday, by the time Cleve and I talk on Monday I could come up with five or six really good ideas. I would look through old ideas, I would look through old shows, I would look through old TV Guides – just looking for ideas and coming up with great titles. I’m a person who breaks things down and comes up with new things. Whenever that happens, Cleve could come up with 35 or 40 ideas by Monday. I call her a popcorn popper of ideas, a fireworks display of ideas. What’s cool is our strengths, in that way, are very different – but our temperament, our outlook and, as I say, our vision for TV is almost identical. We just want to create the next Survivor, the next Wheel of Fortune or the next Chopped – and we have blast doing it every single day.

JWK: You talk about “blue sky” television – which used to be the USA Network approach to programming. Do you think people put on TV looking for escape and a sense of optimism?

DN: We’re positive. There are a lot of crime shows out there. There are a lot of very cynical TV shows but when we worked with Diller what he said was “Look, you two have this very unique outlook and this unique ability. You can create the next Wheel of Fortune or the next Survivor…Since he said that, we refer to “blue sky, big tent, 8-to-88 TV shows.” An eight-year-old and an 88-year-old can watch (our shows) all around the world – and everybody’s happy. A network executive said “You guys create eight-quadrant shows.” I guess in movie terms they’re always looking for a four-quadrant idea – men, women, old, young – everybody loves the movie! So, we’re looking for those types of shows – where everybody can sit, feel safe, feel happy, feel joy and just love these shows.

JWK: I think there’s not enough of that on television these days. Do you guys ever think of doing scripted television or are you happy sticking with the genres of game shows and reality competition?

DN: We are happy because it’s such a wide world. You can pitch a show like Chopped one day and then you can pitch a show like Survivor the next and then you can pitch a show loike Holey Moley or a show like Masked Singer. The world is so wide open to us. The scripted world is a totally different world. You’re dealing with different executives and your dealing with writers. So, it would be like all of a sudden starting to write pop songs. It’s that different.

JWK: Essentially, what do you hope people take from your book when they buy it?

DN: Inspiration. As I say, what Carnie was trying to point out to me was “You wrote this book so people could feel the same way that executives feel when you pitch them a great show.” I want people to put down the book. Carnie said she couldn’t finish it. I said “Why?” I was like “That doesn’t sound like a compliment to me.” She’s like “No! I couldn’t finish it because I keep writing songs! I haven’t written this many songs in like 30 years! I read your book and I’m just inspired to sit down at the piano!” I was like “Yes!  That’s the goal!” I want you to read the book and feel like anything is possible.

John W. Kennedy is a writer, producer and media development consultant specializing in television and movie projects that uphold positive timeless values, including trust in God.